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Comments (Continued)

  • 9 months ago
  • 4 points

What negative could exceed the honor of loyalty, pride, and unity aimed towards and within one’s own nation?

Nothing's wrong with that! But nationalism goes beyond that, it's no longer simply being prideful and loyal to your nation, nationalism is the propagation of ideals that directly conflict with unity amongst nations. It's specifically loyalty and support that excludes other nations in support/aid and policy. There's a reason the free world went to war with those ideals, and it's because in order to progress past our innate tribalism we must all work together.

  • 9 months ago
  • 1 point

I suppose maybe I’m not utilizing the word nationalism in exactly the way I would like to have it read. It’s more than patriotism, but not the feeling that foreigners are somehow less than human.

I don’t necessarily dislike other countries; there are good people on every stretch of the Earth. Though, what I do believe is that America is slowly getting weaker. When working too closely with other groups, a nation-state can develop dependencies and slowly lose its individual strength. The “exclusionary” aspect of nationalism could be handy here. We don’t need to enact policies that are for the detriment of other nations, but it would probably be best if we divert attention away from international issues for awhile and make sure we fix our own first in order to avoid calamity. We don’t need to completely ignore global issues, but they should be placed on the back burner. Then with an intense focus directed inward it would be easier to improve our country.

It’s also true that nationalism is a powerful centripetal force. Now, because of your contributions to this thread, I’m sure you understand the divisions across the idealogies and identities of the American people. There are racial tensions. The state of our politics has become a sad game of uncivil tribalism. Would it not be better if the US citizens were actually unified and able to work together? Abraham Lincoln said that “a house divided against itself cannot stand” and at the current rate, we will be torn asunder. Politics are becoming more and more polarized and many people actually feel like they belong to different groups because of their color. There was a student in my class somewhat recently who got into an argument because instead of calling themself African-American, they simply said American. They explained that no one in their family had originated from Africa for several generations so he did not really associate his identity with being African in any major way. I believe this indicates that if nationalism was spread the right way, we could have racial tension nearly eradicated and potentially abate the issue of political tribalism.

Nationalism can be good along with its internal focus because it can allow us to become stronger and make substantial improvements. I don’t want to make the same mistakes that have led to so much war, but I sincerely believe that it’s possible to have a nationalism that is completely separated from warmongering.

Please, if you see some flaw in my logic or something I missed, tell me. I’m willing to discuss this further. :)

  • 9 months ago
  • 1 point

Though, what I do believe is that America is slowly getting weaker. When working too closely with other groups, a nation-state can develop dependencies and slowly lose its individual strength.

I mean cohesion amongst nations is what has allowed our planet to have relative peace, we only need to look at countries like China and Russia that are incredibly nationalistic to see the horrors os such thinking. China has done exactly what you want, focus completely on the expansion of their ideals and hasn't given a crap about how it affects smaller nations in the pacific, (Examples include building infrastructure within the pacific islands such as mines and electrical services). All of this investment purely to (rather tactfully mind you) spread the communist ideals of China.

Using China as an example, we see immense economic developments and technological advancements (Though some make the argument that's because they're encouraging more foreign investments, getting away from purely relying on their own country to create and develop tech). The downsides however is obvious, an abhorrent human rights record, the terrible subjugation of the poor and the mantra of a one party nation fueled by their own ideals (Examples being the social credit system and the creation of the eternal leader). All of these occur because they are purely in service to themselves. They have no regard for UN conventions (as we have seen with their total disregard for the people of tibet and their attempts to be a free nation, and intense labour camps and squalid conditions for criminal).

Now you could make the argument that China and Russia are rather extreme examples and that's true, they are. However they all from Nazi Germany to Stalins Russia, to Mao's China, started as leaders who where driven to disregard the entire world and focus on pushing their nation as the dominant powerhouse. It always starts somewhere.

but it would probably be best if we divert attention away from international issues for awhile and make sure we fix our own first in order to avoid calamity.

I don't believe it would, There's been an incredible amount of progress made internationally thanks to US involvement, now of course we know that US involvement is not always a good thing but to put it simply, if the US ever stops being the "leader of the free world" another nation will and their definition of free may not match ours. It's essentially what China is trying to position themselves as now and the exclusionary talks about abolishing NATO by the US president only serves the interests of our enemies. I understand many americans and their view that America should stop getting involved and focus on their people, I can 100% sympathise with that sentiment but the reality is, if america decides to give up their position, somebody will fill it, it's just the fact of humanity.

Now, because of your contributions to this thread, I’m sure you understand the divisions across the idealogies and identities of the American people. There are racial tensions. The state of our politics has become a sad game of uncivil tribalism. Would it not be better if the US citizens were actually unified and able to work together?

Of course it would, it would be amazing if the USA was unified under a single voice of peace and inclusion, but that's the exact opposite of nationalism, it's not possible for an entire nation to be rallied under a single banner if that banner is used to disregard the rest of humanity, we know this because every warmongering nationalistic nation has had a large dissident population opposed to those ideals, and you know what those ultra nationalistic countries did to those people? They systematically murdered them, and i can't for the life of me separate nationalism from these atrocities.

Abraham Lincoln said that “a house divided against itself cannot stand” and at the current rate, we will be torn asunder.

But that doesn't stop a country from helping its allies and the world.

Politics are becoming more and more polarized and many people actually feel like they belong to different groups because of their color

Mhmm, there's definitely racial tensions and political tensions essentially in every nation, it shouldn't be a barrier to support humanity

There was a student in my class somewhat recently who got into an argument because instead of calling themself African-American, they simply said American. They explained that no one in their family had originated from Africa for several generations so he did not really associate his identity with being African in any major way. I believe this indicates that if nationalism was spread the right way, we could have racial tension nearly eradicated and potentially abate the issue of political tribalism.

Well no because instead of racial tensions you would have tensions at the international stage, it would simply move the goalpost (I also don't believe it would solve racial tensions anyway, the proof that I think explains why is Nazi Germany's persecution of the Jewish population, an ultra nationalistic country such as Nazi Germany still found its reason to attempt genocide based upon xenophobic views and as previously mentioned, China's policy of not recognising Tibet as a free state, oh and they made the circumstances which led to about 1 million Tibetan deaths )

Nationalism can be good along with its internal focus because it can allow us to become stronger and make substantial improvements.

From a pure logical standpoint, how does cutting out the majority of peoples views/opinions/intelligence equal a stronger nation? If the US purely focused on themselves it would be at the expanse of other nations which would in turn lead to less technological and economic investment from the rest of the world. To compensate for this they'd do what China has been doing which is manipulating global markets to benefit themselves and using espionage to steal state secrets, the reason they do this is because they don't have open research agreements and investments from the nations that have the tech they want, so instead of opening relations, they abuse systems and people to get what they need/want.

I'm totally happy to keep discussing this, it's an interesting topic

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